Real World: San Diego (2011) - Over the Rainbow

FishHooks;284843 wrote:
You have assumed so much about me and my positions it is laughable. I am not defending Zach. I don't like him. Sam and Priscilla are the only 2 on this season I do like. You throw all these stereotypes at me because you assume I am some religious zealot. Never watched the 700 Club and don't go to church unless there is a casket or bride and groom in the front. What I do however is recognize that some people don't agree with me and acknowledge they can come from a different point of view. All I have been doing is pointing out that all this over-reaching pro-gay rhetoric comes across like some think we should have a rainbow flag flying above our American flag. I don't comment on the Sam thing because I missed that part of the show and I can never understand what Zach says in his phone scenes so I, at least, try not to argue from positions of complete ignorance.

I completely understand your viewpoint and see where you are coming from. Still I have to make some differing statements to make. 1) Regarding the how one was raised argument - if that was valid, the general viewpoint of certain values and moral standards would never change. People would continue to raise their kids as they were raised, and no human rights movements would have been successful, because the majority would eternally suppress the minorities. This apparently is not the case, because a lot of people grow beyond how they were raised and develop their own standards. So this argument is absolutely no excuse for Zach's or anyone's behavior. 2) Regarding the "ridiculous" dressing up and behaviour at pride parades...I could raise similar arguments with regards to Halloween, major sport events and other similar festivals/events/etc - people's tastes differ, and some enjoy what others don't. What I dislike about Zach and similar close-minded people is the perpetual refusal to at least try it once and experience it for yourself just to learn and to support your room-mates - you won't turn gay or get ill by doing this. He could try it and either learn that it's actually not that bad and even entertaining, or he could see "This is really not my thing, but at least I tried" (though I still think that for him gay culture/community/lifestyle is all the same, and he simply wants to be ignorant - the dressing probably is not that important). What really is beyond me is insistence on a gay agenda or that you dislike the notion that everyone should have a rainbow flag above their American (or whatever nation's) flag, which is absolutely pointless. There is no conspiracy for a gay world regime or to turn everyone gay. It's about trying your hardest to show people that being gay/the gay community/culture and all of that stuff is not dangerous, their festivals are similar to heterosexual festivals and so on. And to see such festivals from footage is still highly different than experiencing it first-hand with some room-mates/friends.

Challenge_Fan;284841 wrote:
Thank you for skimming my post without recognizing what I was saying. I don't think you need to tolerate everything about a person in order to like them. I've had plenty of people tell me that they hate Christians, and while I'm Christian, I have no need to take offense. Because Christianity doesn't define who I am as a whole. I have had tons of people tell me how disgusted they are with Mixed Martial Arts, and while a huge portion of my life is dedicated towards it, I need not take offense. Because I am way too complex of an individual to be identified solely but 2 aspects of my life. So while I do not support homosexuality itself I find myself regularly getting along with homosexuals.

Are you seriously comparing someone being involved in Mixed Martial Arts to someone being gay? Really? As for people saying they hate Christians, well those people would be bigots. Plain and simple. You state you hate someone because of their religion is the equivalent of saying you hate someone because of race or sexual orientation or gender. For example, you will notice no one here saying they dislike Zach because he is a Christian. They are saying they dislike him because he is a bigot. One's religion does not serve as a defensible rationalization for bigotry no more than it serves as a rationalization for rape, slavery, or the killing of children. This is 2011 and clinging to the notion that one can treat gays as inferior and not be called out no longer is not going to happen. Nowadays people no longer get pass like they wrongly used to. Sorry. To state you do not tolerate homosexuality does not cut it just as saying one does not tolerate Hispanics or Jews no longer cuts it.

It just sucks that just because you don't like something and prefer to not be around it you're labeled a homophobic *******.

If someone says they don't like Hispanics and prefer not to be around Hispanics, they are being a racist. If someone says they don't like Jews and prefer not to be around Jews, they are are being anti-semitic. If someone says they don't like gays and prefer not be around gays, they are being a homophobe. Pretty cut and dry. When one chooses to decide that someone's race, religion, or sexual orientation is the decision maker in whether they want to be around the person, they are being a bigot. To be fair to Zach, he has not stated he does not want to be around Sam. It is his other behaviors towards gays (the joke to Sam, the comments in the car, the view on gays in the military, etc.), that have earned him the homophobe tag.

You have assumed so much about me and my positions it is laughable. I am not defending Zach. I don't like him. Sam and Priscilla are the only 2 on this season I do like. You throw all these stereotypes at me because you assume I am some religious zealot. Never watched the 700 Club and don't go to church unless there is a casket or bride and groom in the front. What I do however is recognize that some people don't agree with me and acknowledge they can come from a different point of view. All I have been doing is pointing out that all this over-reaching pro-gay rhetoric comes across like some think we should have a rainbow flag flying above our American flag. I don't comment on the Sam thing because I missed that part of the show and I can never understand what Zach says in his phone scenes so I, at least, try not to argue from positions of complete ignorance.

So you have been defending Zach nonstop and ripping being pro-gay for pages without watching the whole episode. Interesting move. That said I am sorry people asking for equal rights and not to be treated like crap bothers you and that you think it is instead an attempt for gays to overtake the country. Quite a leap from A to Z in my opinion but I guess you feel people showing pride in who they are in the face of homophobia is wrong. How dare those gays do that? Seriously, try putting your argument with something else (say race) and see how it sounds. Not so good, huh. As for assuming you are a religious zealot. Not really. You made the odd statement of watching footage of gay pride which showed horror but you do have a tendency to make bad moves in your debate. I just answered that comment (which I would hope by now you see as the bad move it was - again best to watch the whole episode). That is the problem when one attempts to rationalize all of someone's behavior as you do for Zach. For example, I have ripped on Frank here several times because I know better than to try to claim everything he does is right. You try to rationalize someone's actions and absolve them of all guilt, you can paint yourself into a corner fairly quickly (as you have done). What I do assume is you are making the same arguments as people long have. A sort of I have no problem at all with gays but they have to understand not everyone supports their rights and that is okay. It is sort of a I am not against gays but they should not force their "gay agenda" on anyone argument. Heck some members of the LGBT community would even agree with you (same as the Civil Rights movement had Jesse Owens). Luckily that is not the majority or else gays would still be arrested for being gay, DADT would still be in effect, and not one state would allow same-sex marriage. Refusing to put up with homophobia and showing pride in one's identity is not some attempt to "have a rainbow flag flying above our American flag". It is asking to not be disrespected as human beings because of one's sexual orientation. It is asking for equal rights in a country that does not give them to those who are gay. I think 8 years ago, your comments would have been a solid playing of the middle ground. Now, they come across as backwards. Good. It is called progress.

I cannot wait for the rest of this season. /sarcasm

"Don't step up to someone 4x your size" "Is he afraid of me? Good." Where is CT when you need em'? Knock this guy out already!

The scene with Nate comforting Sam in bed was so touching and adorable. It made up for all the other terribleness of this episode.

The fact people here are justifying Zach (and Ashley's) behavior and attitudes says everything about how being gay is still not seen as the same as being black, female, Jewish, Latino etc. If either of the two said anything about one of those groups, no-one would defend them. But somehow being anti-gay is just a "belief" that one "has" and is entitled to, and that calling them out on their discriminatory attitudes is "forcing" the issue on them. It isn't considered valid to be racist or sexist. Why is it still considered valid to be anti-gay? Why does the gay community not get the same level of respect as other minority groups? Replace the word gay and add the word "Christian" and say "I'll beat the Christian out of you", and we'll see how many people would rush to the defense of Zach. If he said that there would be HELL to pay and you all know this is true. The reality is, with how defensive some people are when HOMOPHOBIA is called out for exactly what it is, is that a lot of people legitimately feel like it's OK to hold a negative view of the gay community and lack respect for gay people. Zach is one of those people. He's definitely homophobic, the definition is an irrational aversion, hatred, fear or discrimination. He's irrationally averse and biased towards homosexuality. There isn't any excuse for it, either. Yeah, he and Ashley are from small towns and may have grown up conservatively. A lot of gay people have grown up in the same living conditions and they aren't ex-gays promoting gay hate. Being from a small-town doesn't give an individual a pass on being small-minded. He's in the wrong. You can hang around a gay person and still be homophobic. Notice how ALL anti-gays say they have gay friends. It's all just a way to basically have their cake and eat it too, being able to say whatever nasty things about LGBT citizens they can, or looking down on LGBT people internally, but then using the friends-card to try to push away any criticism. It's pathetic.

jesses_girl;284283 wrote:
Just because he doesn't support it doesn't mean he hates gay people. He has his own beliefs and what I find disgusting is how Frank thinks Zach and Ashley hates gay people just because they don't support it. There's a big difference.

There isn't a big difference. The literal antonym of support is ENEMY. Foe. Disapproval. Not supporting something, especially as strongly as Zach feels on this issue, literally means have a inherent negative view of what that something is. He is anti-gay, and he may not hate gay people, but he most definitely is against homosexuality. The "his own beliefs" excuse died a long time ago. Yes, we know people believe anti-gay things, that doesn't make it OK. Not all beliefs are acceptable. Based on interviews I've seen and on twitter, Zach and Ashley mostly are their own separate group from everyone else. There's a reason for that. Nate came around on the gay thing very quickly, I think also the suicide situation helped in that regard, in realizing that his words have an impact and learning to respect and accept all people for who they are. He's an example of what someone SHOULD do in this situation. I've always said if people like him get it, why can't everyone else? If people like him stop making excuses and see the light, so can everyone else. If you choose not to, then don't cry when your criticized for that. Calling out someone on their behavior is not the same as forcing something on them. It's not that hard to simply accept people for being gay and accept it as OK. Many act as if it's a chore. It isn't. People are gay, that's who they are, get over it. The only people making it an issue are people with hangups like Zach and Ashley, and then people like those two and some on here make excuses. You choose to be anti-gay, and as with any choice, there are consequences.

101flyboy;284917 wrote:
The fact people here are justifying Zach (and Ashley's) behavior and attitudes says everything about how being gay is still not seen as the same as being black, female, Jewish, Latino etc. If either of the two said anything about one of those groups, no-one would defend them. But somehow being anti-gay is just a "belief" that one "has" and is entitled to, and that calling them out on their discriminatory attitudes is "forcing" the issue on them. It isn't considered valid to be racist or sexist. Why is it still considered valid to be anti-gay? Why does the gay community not get the same level of respect as other minority groups?

I'm not defending Zach, I just understand where he's coming from, and don't see the big deal about him wanting to distance himself from Frank As for the Black/Jewish/Latino/Woman thing, I'm black, and if Zach behaved that way, I would have the same reaction I do to ppl who are anti Black to me or others in my real life. That attitude is "wow, it's 2011, I pity you, but whatver"... It's the kind of thing that I just get over and I don't want to waste my time trying to convert non believers to all the great things about being black. I don't have to associate myself with people like that, just as Frank/Zach don't need to associate with each other. I feel like this is what Zach is expecting from Frank.

Dash_Vegas!;284925 wrote:
I'm not defending Zach, I just understand where he's coming from, and don't see the big deal about him wanting to distance himself from Frank As for the Black/Jewish/Latino/Woman thing, I'm black, and if Zach behaved that way, I would have the same reaction I do to ppl who are anti Black to me or others in my real life. That attitude is "wow, it's 2011, I pity you, but whatver"... It's the kind of thing that I just get over and I don't want to waste my time trying to convert non believers to all the great things about being black. I don't have to associate myself with people like that, just as Frank/Zach don't need to associate with each other. I feel like this is what Zach is expecting from Frank.

I wasn't really talking about you, but a couple of other members. With that said, the big deal is that Zach's homophobic. Homophobia is a big deal. I understand his position and what it's all about, but understanding where he's coming from is a totally different thing. Where he's coming from is a position of homophobia and only if you have that feeling inside yourself would you legitimately understand where he's coming from and accept that as a valid POV. It's easy to ignore stupidity in the every day world, but when living in a house with someone for 3 months+all the promotional and sponsor activities roommates on the RW do, it's a totally different story. Frank essentially has to live with someone who looks down on him, for something he can't control. That's not a good position to be in, especially someone who is emotionally unstable as Frank is. Sam is more secure and stable in who she is, but even she began to crack a little when it comes to Zach and Ashley. There is no avoiding that feeling of hostility or rejection when you're forced to associate with that person for long periods of time. I think many tend to forget this. Zach isn't really intelligent nor knowledgeable enough, IMO, to think though this situation. The reality is, homosexuality makes him at the very least EXTREMELY insecure and uncomfortable, and his way of handling things, like Frank put it, is to avoid them and put them off, pretend as if the monkey in the room isn't there. He wants to be "left alone" but doesn't do anything to address real problems, which shows a real lack of maturity. I don't really like Frank but at least he's not one to just keep quiet and pretend everything is A OK, when clearly it's not. The problem is Frank and Sam are both very forward individuals, and Zach gets defensive and closes up because of this. It's really just an extreme personality clash that is irreconcilable, but they can respect each other. Zach doesn't do that, though. Zach doesn't respect homosexuality for being what it is. And Frank feels this and reacts the way he does. Both sides share blame in this situation, but ultimately this wouldn't be happening if Zach weren't anti-gay and close-minded. Also, the way I see it, if you can't discuss your views without choking, without getting defensive , without getting abrasive when someone calls you out on those beliefs, then you shouldn't hold them. If you cannot handle criticism in being anti-gay or anything else, you shouldn't have those beliefs. You make the choice to believe a certain way, own it or drop it. That's one major problem I think the other roommates have with Ash and Zach. They're making excuses for their behavior, instead of owning up to it. And people here make excuses for them.

Nightwolf;284354 wrote:
There's a difference between an event that celebrates homosexuality and an event that is attended by predominately heterosexual people.

What's the difference? Gay people live in a heterosexual-oriented society and don't whine about it or say they'll leave themselves out of any and every function where there may be open displays of heterosexuality? Let's keep it very real here. This line of thinking comes down to this: Heterosexuality is normal and homosexuality isn't. That's the only reason to have a different viewpoint on going to a gay event in comparison to a straight event. Because people think being gay is weird and abnormal.

FishHooks wrote:
but it is not an issue that I feel strong emotions for since "basic human rights" is very subjective.

No, it isn't. Everyone has the basic human right to equal legal and social rights and freedom to live their lives without persecution. The fact you don't feel strong emotions for legal citizens and decent human beings being denied this is callous.

Dash_Vegas!;284925 wrote:
I'm not defending Zach, I just understand where he's coming from, and don't see the big deal about him wanting to distance himself from Frank As for the Black/Jewish/Latino/Woman thing, I'm black, and if Zach behaved that way, I would have the same reaction I do to ppl who are anti Black to me or others in my real life. That attitude is "wow, it's 2011, I pity you, but whatver"... It's the kind of thing that I just get over and I don't want to waste my time trying to convert non believers to all the great things about being black. I don't have to associate myself with people like that, just as Frank/Zach don't need to associate with each other. I feel like this is what Zach is expecting from Frank.

I have read most of your posts and the general attitude in them is Frank is horrible and at fault for everything while Zach is not homophobic and only acts this way because Frank annoys him. Please explain how Frank's behavior influenced Zach's homophobic comments in the car, Zach not wanting gays in the military, and Zach's homophobic joke/threat at Sam. I think Frank is annoying but, unlike you, I don't blame Zach's homophobic behavior on Frank. I would love to hear your rationalization. For example, was Zach actually talking to Frank, who was hiding off camera behind Sam, when Zach said he would beat the gay out? And did Zach confuse the word "gay" with some other word. Which point do you understand where Zach is coming from - Zach's beliefs that gays are inferior and unworthy of serving their country, that gays should be threatened, that gays are not people who he wants to be around, that gays make him want to immediately affirm his heterosexuality by shooting guns. Please enlighten me. I also don't mean to call bs but I highly doubt that if Zach threatened to "beat the black out of someone", you would give it a pass. I highly doubt if he said he did not want to be around blacks, you would say that does not mean he is a racist. Fishhooks posted one of his Zach defenses earlier and you congratulated him. Interesting.

Challenge_Fan;284566 wrote:
I completely disagree. I do not condone, support, or advocate Homosexuality in any way. But I still like Homosexuals as people, I do in fact Hate the Sin, Not the Sinner. I don't think that anybody is so 1 dimensional that they can be completely defined by their sexual orientation. Hating homosexuality does not mean that you hate gay people.

Yes it does. Gay people are gay. You either accept the fact gay people are gay, or you don't. If you don't, then you don't like who that person is. You may like certain parts of who they are, but not the person as a whole. In fact it's insulting that people like you can arbitrarily hate the fact people are gay and have the AUDACITY to say you "like gay people". You honestly believe trashing gay persons' sexuality=like? Please. You're anti-gay, and it is what it is, but the excuse making made by people like you to make yourself look good is pathetic.

FishHooks;284627 wrote:
Sometimes in this argument, I feel like the gay community wants to make going to Pride and night clubs and stuff like that requirements for citizenship. I also reject the implication that not being rah rah pro-gay is anywhere close to physical attacks and straight-up harassment and by painting with such a broad-brush the gay community is losing some support that it could be getting from people. Even most people who don't like gays, would never support something like what happened to Matthew Shephard.

Expecting acceptance and respect is not going overboard. At the end of the day, in 2011, society is trending one way, and that's towards equality and progress for LGBT rights and societal justice and equality for the gay community. Being gay accepting does not mean one has to go to a gay pride parade, but it does mean one should SUPPORT the fact people are gay and their fight for equality. Period. So, at the end of the day, there really are two clear sides here, as no-one is forcing anyone to believe a certain way, however, NOT supporting the gay community is being part of the problem, and not part of the solution. Being anti-gay is wrong, and that's what this really comes down to. People like you defend those who choose a position that is increasingly untenable to hold. That's fine, but you and those who hold those beliefs make the CHOICE to open yourselves to the criticism that comes with it. That's what it comes down to. What are you doing to ensure a situation like what happened to Matthew Shepard doesn't happen again? Basic acceptance does wonders for many. If you aren't capable of supporting and accepting the gay community as just another sector of the American populous, then, quite frankly I have a hard time respecting you as an individual, and as we see with the backlash Zach and Ashley have received after this episode, a lot agree with me. Being homophobic isn't a respectable view and it isn't OK, regardless of the justifications made for it.

Guys, this conversation is moving past the episode and becoming personal...let's have a change of subject before the banhammer comes down.

101flyboy;284937 wrote:
Yes it does. Gay people are gay. You either accept the fact gay people are gay, or you don't. If you don't, then you don't like who that person is. You may like certain parts of who they are, but not the person as a whole. In fact it's insulting that people like you can arbitrarily hate the fact people are gay and have the AUDACITY to say you "like gay people". You honestly believe trashing gay persons' sexuality=like? Please. You're anti-gay, and it is what it is, but the excuse making made by people like you to make yourself look good is pathetic.

101Flyboy, great posts. What is great is progress. 8 years ago, behavior like Zach's would have been given a pass by most people. Instead he is being called a flat out homophobe (heck even Grantland writers are calling him one) and being treated in write ups like the jerk he is. Meanwhile the old days of "hate the sin, love the sinner" are being questioned and ridiculed. I love it. I love Sam's speech. It was phenomenal. The "homophobia is okay" days have faded. Now homophobia is being held up to the light and the attempts to rationalize and defend it are being called out. You are right. The fact Zach is defended and people say his behavior is not homophobic shows progress is still needed and that in some circles homophobia sadly is still tolerated in a way other bigotry is not.

FishHooks;284753 wrote:
I think religion is a valid basis for a differing viewpoint in most matters, be the religion Christian or otherwise. I also think you and I have irreconcilable views as to what "homophobia" so it is really pointless.

No, it isn't, but at least this explains why you're defending Zach. You think being anti-gay is a justifiable belief based on "religion" and "conservatism". Using this explanation, I can excuse any egregious way of thinking by saying "God made me feel this way." And because you think an immutable sexual orientation is similar to a chosen way of thinking in how people "believe strongly" in what they are (gay isn't a belief BTW), I guess some people are just totally incapable of not holding discriminatory attitudes. We should just give them a pass. It's not like they can help it.

molds13;284941 wrote:
Guys, this conversation is moving past the episode and becoming personal...let's have a change of subject before the banhammer comes down.

No personal attacks, got it :)

molds13;284941 wrote:
Guys, this conversation is moving past the episode and becoming personal...let's have a change of subject before the banhammer comes down.

Good call Moldsie!

Balmont;284944 wrote:
101Flyboy, great posts. What is great is progress. 8 years ago, behavior like Zach's would have been given a pass by most people. Instead he is being called a flat out homophobe (heck even Grantland writers are calling him one) and being treated in write ups like the jerk he is. Meanwhile the old days of "hate the sin, love the sinner" are being questioned and ridiculed. I love it. I love Sam's speech. It was phenomenal. The "homophobia is okay" days have faded. Now homophobia is being held up to the light and the attempts to rationalize and defend it are being called out. You are right. The fact Zach is defended and people say his behavior is not homophobic shows progress is still needed and that in some circles homophobia sadly is still tolerated in a way other bigotry is not.

Thank you, Balmont :) I'm glad that most people here realize Zach is in the wrong but there is still a strong undercurrent of homophobia in the complexes of many. But it's great that homophobia is receiving the backlash it deserves. And even better that homophobic behavior is being called as much, accordingly. People are finally being held accountable for their attitudes towards homosexuality and also being held accountable for their actions towards LGBT citizens. That means we're gaining respect. And that's the #1 sign of progress. People like Sam are great because she's direct yet she's also able to be communicative in a clearly spoken way, she gets her point across. And she doesn't flip out in doing so. Really when examined closely, no anti-gay arguments stand the test of logic, so it's very easy to shoot down all of Zach's justifications for his horrible behavior. It's good, though, that people like Zach are on TV, because it shows people that homophobia exists, how horrific and dehumanizing it is, and how ignorant homophobes tend to be revolving around the issue of homosexuality, gay rights, etc. The only way to eliminate the problem is by exposing it for the filth it is.